Curse

Perth68 · Sep 23, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Basically the more autonomous PvP becomes from PvE the better. It gives each greater freedom to develop to fit the needs of the particular groups of people who play them, and the needs of the format to make it functon as ideally as possible.

This seems to be the route there taking with GW2, while it sounds a lot better from the PvP side of things it doesn't sound very good from the PvE side. I want the skill based PvE with a connection between PvE and PvP. GW2 looks like there going to split it far enough that they can work under different rules yet still be able to PvP with the same character you PvE with. For a company that gave a speech about trying to make diverse mmos to work out niches in the market it seems that they're going in the wrong direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

sounds like the OP is complaining that his PVE build doesnt work in PVP....

exactly.

Crom The Pale · Sep 23, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Integrating PvP and PvE isnt the real problem, it has been done.

The problem is Anet trying to please everyone, and in doing so frustrating most everyone.

For many, not all, but many players PvE is about simple worry free battles and rewards to build your char into what you want it to be.
PvP on the other hand is looked at as a more challenging aspect of the game where your are forced to battle with more thought behind your actions.

Both are meant to be fun, but what one person finds fun is frustrating to another. Anet contuniously subdivided GW to try and fill every possible niche. Random arenas, team, Heros Ascent, GvG, Hero battles, repeatable quest, missions, hard mode, elite dungeons.

Now here is what I pictured GW to be when I purchased the pre sale for prophicies 2+ years ago.

PvE - you progress through the story, building your chars supply of skills/weapons and armor untill you complete the final mission. Then you move on to Tomb of Primevil Kings and battle to win the Hall of Heros.

PvP - practise and train in the many arenas. Join a guild and begin to GvG.

The fact that you could take a PvE char into PvP seamed like the natural progresion of the game after completing the PvE portion. However things didn't work out that way. I discoverd that to win the Hall of Hero's required running one of a limited party builds. My very first attempt ended with our party and another party being wiped out by a third party consisting of almost 200 minions.

Whats rather funny now looking back is that the guide book that came with the presale actually described in detail how to build up such an army for exactly this purpose, something that was nerfed later on for reasons that still escape me.

All I can hope for now is that GW2 will have a much more defined line between PvE and PvP so that people know what they are buying, not guessing as to what will be changed to keep others happy at some point down the road.

wilebill · Sep 23, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

"I wanted to use the exact same character, same skills and everything."

This will not work. In GW you need different builds for PvE and PvP, A farming build is very different from either.

If you're really serious about using the exact same character with the same skills and exact same everything for both PvE and PvP, then you want World of WarCraft, where this is much closer to being true.

DreamRunner · Sep 23, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No they arent incompatiable, its just Anerf made it that way long ago. They screwed up when they allowed the creation of PvP only chars. Thats when the true and start of all incompatibilities came in.

Whoa, I can't even comprehend what you said because its full of lies and bullshit. When pvp chars came out, it was the best thing to ever happen in GW and still is compare to other MMO's like WoW where you need to continue grind for items again and again just to compete against other players.

Esan · Sep 23, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Not only are PvE and PvP incompatible, but also PvP is incompatible with itself. RA/TA, AB, HA and GvG are completely separate games.

And let us not even talk about the players who play these game types. Most of them are incessant whiners through and through. And then there are those like me who whine about the whiners, and about whining in general. Pretty soon Malice Black comes along and locks the thread.

manitoba1073 · Sep 23, 2007, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Whoa, I can't even comprehend what you said because its full of lies and bullshit. When pvp chars came out, it was the best thing to ever happen in GW and still is compare to other MMO's like WoW where you need to continue grind for items again and again just to compete against other players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

This is probably the most blatant lie and bullshit answer that has been posted in this thread. The PvP character creation aspect of the game was what allowed players to be able to become more active and take a more PvP orientated role in this game. The problem was that the PvP creation screen and aspects were inferior to the PvE character creation. Armor swapping, the +5 energy weapons, more available character equips... all played a huge role in determining as to why most PvP players ran a PvE character in PvP.

The biggest problem that anet did with PvP was there was no full uax at the beginning of PvP for PvP characters only. All item upgrades, runes, and skills had to be unlocked either through faction, or before that through PvE. Forcing players to grind to unlock or grind through an aspect of the game they have little to no interest in playing was what made the PvP only characters and option a failure.

PvP used to be a valuable aspect to this game and as the OP suggested was a reason why a lot of people did purchase the game. The PvP in Guildwars used to be the best form of competitive PvP in a game there was. The style of gameplay, the skill and determination of the community, the prizes and tournaments they used to offer to compete on the "Big Stage" against players from around the world, are now all but gone and the PvP community and PvP as a competitive game has now but all gone and is only a mere shell of whats left.

If you 2 would Learn to Read. I said it was the start that when Anerf seperated them and thats when they started to become incompatible.
Its not BS, Thats the exact point when the wedge was First driven inbetween PvP and PvE. Sorry if you folks dont like the truth but that is and was the starting point of it all. I know it must be so hard for some folks to hear the truth from time to time but it needs to happen.

Longasc · Sep 23, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

WoW has killed off any hope of skill-based PvE, showing that more prefer time spent.
(...)
If PvE were designed as more challenging (not time-consuming) from the start, the barrier between the PvE and PvP would have been much lesser, possibly non-existent.
(...)
But the way they both diverged, good practices in one were the worst in another, thereby increasing the conflict.

Yep. Both gametypes are just totally different. In PvE you have to fight tons of rather mindless foes. They do not remove conditions usually, they do not stop if hexes shred them. In fact we cannot expect ANet to make supreme AI, nobody can blame them for that. They could of course give mobs better skillsets, but in the end mobs are obviously not wanted to be really hard to kill...

PvP is a totally different environment - but both gamemodes work with the same skills.

I was always in favor of making two games. GW:MMO and GW:Tournament.

But for that they do not seem to have the resources. And tbh, I think there are not PvPers out there that would play a pure GW PvP for extended periods of time, the PvE grinders rule and you see that in everything you hear about GW2.

GW2 will start with full unlocks for PvP chars. Good. If they think this is enough to rejuvenate PvP, they are quite optimist.

At the moment their PvE gamedesign has become an underwhelming title-grind. They should have made GW2 either a full PvE or a full PvP game, but it seems they want to try to appease everyone, while being unable to shine at either game mode.

Despozblehero · Sep 23, 2007, 08:55 AM // 08:55

I think the idea of PvE and PvP being incompatible isnt exactly true. Its just what youre looking at makes it seem incompatible because of all the mishandled junk in the game (on both sides PvE and PvP)... most of it is stuff thats been compounded or ignored since the original game.Also there are things that have in the past been done for one side that the other didnt like, and a lot of fish flopping by the devs that didnt make things any better.

Perth68 · Sep 23, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Both gametypes are just totally different. In PvE you have to fight tons of rather mindless foes. They do not remove conditions usually, they do not stop if hexes shred them. In fact we cannot expect ANet to make supreme AI, nobody can blame them for that. They could of course give mobs better skillsets, but in the end mobs are obviously not wanted to be really hard to kill...

There are huge differences but that isn't something that makes them incompatible. There are limits to AI but I don't think they have been reached, but rather they were designed to be bad. I don't think that AI limitation is a real issue though. I don't want PvE that mirrors PvP. The Zaishen Battles are terrible. I want interesting and diverse encounters and I think a lot of that begins by making them actually better.

Actually I want hard to kill mobs. I know its not the kind of game everyone enjoys , in fact many of my friends don't, but a game designed with challenge makes it more rewarding for me, and a game that I was and am very interested in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

I think there are not PvPers out there that would play a pure GW PvP for extended periods of time

I think you may be surprised about just how many there would be.

draxynnic · Sep 23, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

The game Fury is in fact pretty much exactly that - a fantasy roleplaying-style game dedicated entirely to PvP.

agrios · Sep 23, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

In PvE there are hundreds of half-mindless monsters of your level, many monsters above your level, and some big-bad bosses way overpowered (more levels, double damage, etc..).

To beat these you need to have a lot firepower and high-end damage skills, protection.

But infortunately, when it comes to PvP, all these things become too powerful and get overused by FotM builds. So it angers the PvP community and force a "balance update".

In one side you have a lot of ai-controled sprites that go all out you and dont complain about being clobbered by you, like, the 25,456th time with the same build.

But when it comes to pvp, if something becomes too strong, too cheap, you have a lot unhappy customers. And unhappy customers are bad for business.

PvP and PvE stand on delicate balance, wich ANet try this best to keep.

But, like on a scale, you cant lift one side without having to lower the other. And since the release of Guildwars all the player base are in one of the sides of this scale, sometimes you are up, sometimes you are down.

The creation of PvE-only skills are a step in recognizing and trying to fix the equation and leave both (PvP and PvE'rs) customers happy with their game.

But I believe more needs to be done. Instead of just a few PvE skills (some are not *that* good at all) there should be some flexibilization of the game rules to make some things work different in PvP and PvE.

IMHO, these could be implement, in a not so difficult way, using some kind of PvE Auras, that should take place only in non-pvp scenarios. Like title benefits for Asura, Norn, etc.

Some of these "PvE" Auras could be like:

Minion masters aura[Necro]: You have no limit for raising minions
Reapers Aura[Necro]: In adition of the usual Soulreaping bonus, you get 1-3 energy whenever a non summoned (spirits and minions )creature dies
Furious Aura[Warrior]: You receive extra adrenaline when attacking or taking damage
Energetic Aura[Ele]: You have +1 energy regeneration
Hexer Aura[Multi]: All your hexes affect target foe and adjacent foes.

These auras could be primary profession only, having a primary atribute requisite, or the like...

IMHO, just a few touches like these, here and there could be used to make both customers fully satisfied without having to mess too much with balacing and the metagame.

What do you guys think about this idea of PvE-only auras?

X Cytherea X · Sep 23, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Remember the good ol days when Random Arena was in Lion's Arch and Team Arena was in Droknar's Forge and the Guild Hall was on a little island and Heroes' Ascent was beside Dragon's Lair? They should have kept it that way.

And with the introduction of new continents, have their own respective pvp areas WITHIN the pve areas. Not those silly battle isles.

More importantly, they should have NEVER allowed the creation of pvp-only characters. Sure, you'd have to go through PVE to max every new class you wanted to play, but it would have made for a more COHESIVE game. which in the long run, is MUCH better, imo.

insta-create, discardable pvp characters are NOT very rpg-like at all, despite their convenience. WoW doesnt have them...

Vanquisher · Sep 23, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by agrios

What do you guys think about this idea of PvE-only auras?

It only serves to make PvE easier than it already is. Seriously, it's not hard to beat an AI that doesn't think, or change what they're doing in accordance to what you're doing.

Master Ketsu · Sep 23, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

insta-create, discardable pvp characters are NOT very rpg-like at all, despite their convenience. WoW doesnt have them...

This is actually what makes GW better then WoW IMO. The point of PvP characters is to make grind optional in competitive play. Optional grind >>> WoW's Mandatory grind system.
WoW PvE: Dungeons/instances for gear gear gear GEARRRRR
WoW PvP: Honor grind for gear gear gear GEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR

Screw that.

agrios · Sep 23, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

This is actually what makes GW better then WoW IMO. The point of PvP characters is to make grind optional in competitive play. Optional grind >>> WoW's Mandatory grind system.
WoW PvE: Dungeons/instances for gear gear gear GEARRRRR
WoW PvP: Honor grind for gear gear gear GEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR

Screw that.

/QFT

Screw grinding. Screw gear-oriented gameplay.

agrios · Sep 23, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

It only serves to make PvE easier than it already is. Seriously, it's not hard to beat an AI that doesn't think, or change what they're doing in accordance to what you're doing.

True, but PvE is not 100% of time about challenge and skill.

PvP is 100% about challenge and skill.

Sometimes you just want to log in, trash a few mobs and see if something decent drops, get money for some fancy stuff, etc..

Not every second logged must be filled with adrenalin rushes and chess-like strategic battles. Just keep this in mind. That came to me as a manner of "unnerf"/buff some classes without changing the PvP scene. It was just a like a quick spark during a brainstorming session.

Longasc · Sep 23, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perth68

There are huge differences but that isn't something that makes them incompatible.
(...)
I want interesting and diverse encounters and I think a lot of that begins by making them actually better.
(...)
Actually I want hard to kill mobs. I know its not the kind of game everyone enjoys , in fact many of my friends don't, but a game designed with challenge makes it more rewarding for me, and a game that I was and am very interested in.

I agree on the "interesting and diverse encounters". They were IMO somewhat on that IMO better track in the Asuran territories of GW:EN and parts of the Norn territory. Quite the opposite in the Charr Homeland (Devourer madness - but even without, Charrs line up like bowling pins

).

More diverse encounters and mobs that require some more than just plain firepower and defense would make classes like the Mesmer also more wanted. Right now they have a huge bias towards usefulness in PvP and Barbie status in PvE. But there is also the other side: Necros are restricted to types of PvP where a lot of things die, or they exploited spirits. But yeah, before losing focus on the topic, PvE needs more diversity and more challenge.

But I do not share the belief that you can balance for PvE and PvP. A gamedesigner once said they mix like oil and water, and while I hate such phrases, I fear he was right.

ANet had a horrible time balancing Ritualist and Assassins for PvP, and then they were shite in PvE for a while. Especially the Rit was up and down, up and down. Paragons came super imba and are still ultra powerful. Their leadership mechanic and shouts are really problematic in terms of balancing.

I think they needed long enough to balance one mode of play so-so, I do not really believe they can shine at balancing both. That is probably too much for them, even if they try really hard.

If they want challenging PvE, they also need to devote more time to balance for PvE. So far their policy was to make PvE VERY VERY EASY so that balance changes on PvE did not matter that much, if at all.

So what will they do in GW2? Supreme balance for both modes? Forget it!

More likely: PvE = Time played / Grind >>>> skill, difficulty very easy. Quite boring... but popular with the masses!
PvP: As PvE is already easy, they will focus balancing decisions again to 99% on PvP.

The quandary is, you cannot create content 99% exclusive to PvE and then balance skills 99% depending on PvP. PvP gets no major content, and PvE gets no real quality.

Basically, they repeat their GW1 mistakes.

zwei2stein · Sep 23, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by agrios

...
IMHO, these could be implement, in a not so difficult way, using some kind of PvE Auras, that should take place only in non-pvp scenarios. Like title benefits for Asura, Norn, etc.

Some of these "PvE" Auras could be like:

Minion masters aura[Necro]: You have no limit for raising minions
Reapers Aura[Necro]: In adition of the usual Soulreaping bonus, you get 1-3 energy whenever a non summoned (spirits and minions )creature dies
Furious Aura[Warrior]: You receive extra adrenaline when attacking or taking damage
Energetic Aura[Ele]: You have +1 energy regeneration
Hexer Aura[Multi]: All your hexes affect target foe and adjacent foes.

These auras could be primary profession only, having a primary atribute requisite, or the like...

IMHO, just a few touches like these, here and there could be used to make both customers fully satisfied without having to mess too much with balacing and the metagame.

What do you guys think about this idea of PvE-only auras?

Worst idea ever.

PvE players do NOT need extra power to have fun. They need more conjure warriors with res sigs and dom mesmers with FC res chant type enemies - stuff not necesarily hard, but fun to fight.

I learned to love fact that PvE is being activelly ballanced as result of PvP balances - whats imba in PvP, is double imba in PvE (if its not, it because people didnt know how to abuse it properly.).

GW PVE benefited enormoulsy from PvP link, if that link was not there, PvE would be very, very bad.

Master Ketsu · Sep 23, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Hate to play devils advocate, but most of the people complaining about grind are n00bs who fail too much to win without the overpowered PvE skills. Their is NO mandatory grind in guild wars. Their is no mission that cannot be defeated without PvE grind. Good players can still easily get to level 20, get max armor, get a REAL build ( not the BS grind pve skills builds ) , and run it start to finish with nothing but heroes/henchmen.

Anet is not at fault. The Playerbases unwillingness to get better and stop failing is.

Spazzer · Sep 23, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Clearly you haven't seen the multitude of ones before.

Clearly you are really good at reading.